[gecko]...Euthanasia for Distressed Geckos...
Jay Sommers
gecko@lists.gekkota.com
Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:08:41 +0000
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I prefer not to throw away money into a sinking ship. If I had a pipe leak=
ing in my house from multiple fracture points I would opt to gut my whole p=
lumbing system and replace with something that was not obsolete. If the GGA=
were an automobile it would be a Lemon. Things have certainly turned very =
sour around here I just don't think there's enough sugar to sweeten it back=
up. I have seen the publications,I can say I wouldn't have missed much if =
I'd missed them. Maybe if you want help from people to turn this thing arou=
nd you should lead by example.The only active part of the GGA is this list =
serve,and it's a joke. To try to pretend this organization is fulfilling so=
me higher purpose is an insult to members intelligence. There is a big reas=
on why I haven't been a member.It's pretty sad that some of the most knowle=
dgeable,passionate and enthusiastic gecko keepers in the world aren't parti=
cipating in The Global Gecko Association.=20
=20
I have legitimate criticisms. If there wasn't a problem my points wouldn'=
t be valid. No one has been able to respond with any good reasons or excuse=
s for the issues I have called you out on. Just a bunch of shuck and jive b=
.s.
From: lylepuente@optonline.netSubject: Re: [gecko]...Euthanasia for Distres=
sed Geckos...To: gecko@lists.gekkota.comDate: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:47:54 -040=
0Jay,=20
you haven't been a member for several years. It's too bad you missed all th=
e publications.
We have put out some beautiful editions that we are quite proud of
Joining, or volunteering to help would would be more productive than trashi=
ng something people have worked very hard on, without any compensation, rat=
her paying out our own pockets to keep things going. We have two lifetime m=
embers on our board. We put our money into GGA gladly.
Lyle
Lyle Puente
President
Global Gecko Association
http://www.gekkota.org
http://www.MyBrothersBanned.com
http://www.myspace.com/MyBrothersBanned
On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:16 PM, Jay Sommers wrote:Lyle, There is most definit=
ely a self serving interest to all on the board of the so-called "Global Ge=
cko Association". No meetings,no journals,and furthermore no real reason fo=
r continuing to exist. What is being done of any real merit with the money =
received from GGA members? Speaking of merit...I am judging the GGA on its =
own.There is absolutely no substance what-so-ever to this "society". After =
the flop of the IGS I thought everyone would have learned something. Appare=
ntly not. As president I hold you personally responsible for the inexcusab=
le lack of leadership. If I didn't think the GGA was beyond repair I would =
directly challenge you for your position as President. The problem is it is=
too far gone. There is no real reason for the GGA to exist anymore. The et=
hical thing to do would be to let nature take it's course and let it die. J=
esus Christ,let it go out with some damn dignity. Jay "G=
G" Sommers
From: lylepuente@optonline.netSubject: Re: [gecko]...Euthanasia for Distres=
sed Geckos...To: gecko@lists.gekkota.comDate: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:16:20 -040=
0GGA has and will exist for all who have an interest. It was never intended=
or will be intended for an exclusive group of self interests.=20
The GGA journal and newsletter is produced with all interests of the member=
ship addressed and will continue to do so.
This list is open to all, including non GGA members free of charge and to h=
elp when we can.
Everyone is free to post, questions, help suggestions and also criticism fr=
eely.
I read the below post of our purpose and it seems like we do just that:
"Membership is open to anyone with an interest in gekkonids, from the profe=
ssional herpetologist to the hobbyist."
The threads are labeled here and one can always deleted those they have no =
interest in or unsubscribe.
All are welcome
( i just put on some John Denver hahaha ...... )
Lyle
Lyle Puente
President
Global Gecko Association
http://www.gekkota.org
http://www.MyBrothersBanned.com
http://www.myspace.com/MyBrothersBanned
On Jun 9, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Jay Sommers wrote: Actually I should clarify m=
y last post. When I said flush it I meant the GGA. This thing has been redu=
ced to a pathetic joke.The problem is that the joke has no humor. My email =
has been blowing up over the last week and not one post was worthy of landi=
ng in my inbox. This is what the GGA was supposed to be... "The Global Ge=
cko Association (GGA) is dedicated to gecko enthusiasts worldwide. Membersh=
ip is open to anyone with an interest in gekkonids, from the professional h=
erpetologist to the hobbyist. The GGA is an organization committed to prom=
ote interest in gekkonids in a variety of ways, from responsible captive ca=
re, to study in the wild, conservation, academic research and beyond. Furth=
ermore, the GGA will serve people who are interested in gekkonids by provi=
ding a voice and means of communicating and sharing of resources and ideas.=
" Now before anyone gets upset.I have a right to voice my opinion.I mai=
ntain one of the largest and most diverse geckonid species collections in t=
he world(over 200 species). My life revolves around geckos,not one person i=
n the GGA loves geckos more than me.Alot of you know who I am. Let the GGA =
die already.Put it out of it's misery,It is the responsible and ethical thi=
ng to do. You are helping destroy the interest in my hobby and the GGA is f=
ar beyond being rediculous. PLEASE,PLEASE, let it die.Find another avenue=
for social acceptance. GGA...R=
.I.P. Very kindest regards, Jay "GG" Sommers
From: jacobsommers@hotmail.comTo: gecko@lists.gekkota.comSubject: RE: [geck=
o]...Euthanasia for Distressed Geckos...Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:30:16 +000=
0 I would say next time to just flush it.
> From: mhartley@ix.netcom.com> To: gecko@lists.gekkota.com> Subject: Re: [=
gecko]...Euthanasia for Distressed Geckos...> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:17:1=
4 -0800> > Hi Sherron,> > I know a snake-keeper that kills rats with (I thi=
nk) a carbon-dioxide > chamber, because she doesn't like to kill them "maua=
lly". I can find > out more, or put you in touch with her if you like.> > H=
ope this helps,> Melody> > Sherron wrote:> > > Aloha, Kind Friends> > > > I=
prefer to let nature take its course usually, too. But sometimes you > > c=
an see they are in obvious pain ... and that hurts me too much, too. I > > =
can't bear to see them in pain. Especially when it has become apparent > > =
that it is hopeless.> > > > This poor girl apparently fell from our high ce=
iling onto a tile floor. > > When we found her, she only moved when we trie=
d to gently move her out > > of the way. We placed her in a container so sh=
e would be safe from > > predators (other geckos, cats, mongoose, birds) an=
d foot traffic, in the > > hopes she would recover, and gave her fruit and =
water. It was obvious it > > hurt her to move, but she seemed okay when sti=
ll, so we hoped for the best.> > > > By the afternoon of the next day, howe=
ver, her eyes were badly sunken, > > she had trouble breathing, and her ski=
n was developing black blotchy > > areas. She would stiffen and gasp repeat=
edly for air, which obviously > > was causing her more pain. By this time, =
it had been about 18-20 hours > > since her fall and she had started to det=
eriorate rapidly. If there had > > been any hope ... :(> > > > If we were s=
till on the mainland, I could have taken her to our vet who > > we did trus=
t and who would have treated her properly. But here in the > > islands, we =
don't have those resources. Our real problem is finding > > someone who wou=
ld even treat geckos. Heck, finding adequate medical > > treatment for huma=
ns is a big problem on the outer islands, let alone > > for exotic animals.=
I have Myasthenia Gravis (MG) and I can't find a > > neurologist that know=
s anything about my disease on this island. My > > husband sees a cardiolog=
ist who flies over once a month from the island > > of Oahu. It took me 1-1=
/2 years to find a personal doctor who would > > treat my "complicated" pro=
blems. Medical care for both people and > > animals is sadly lacking.> > > =
> And it looks like the small number of vets here primarily just treat > > =
cats & dogs. Those I have called don't include reptiles at all. But I > > r=
eally am not surprised, as we had trouble finding a vet who really knew > >=
how to take care of "exotics" like our pet rats in southern California, > =
> too. Finding good vets who know more than cats & dogs has always been a >=
> problem -- it's just that here in Kona there are far fewer to start with=
.> > > > I am also no longer convinced that a shot from just any vet is > >=
automatically better. I took one of my rats to another vet when our own > =
> vet was out of town and she screamed in pain from his injection -- she > =
> suffered a lot from it and it took her a long time to die as she > > suff=
ered. Not all vets have empathy nor even seem to believe that > > animals r=
eally can suffer pain. So unless you know the vet, you are just > > taking =
your chances. Sometimes you have no choice, But that experience > > has mad=
e me leery of automatically trusting every vet.> > > > Worse, after doing s=
ome checking online, I find that it is illegal in > > Hawaii to catch & kee=
p any day geckos in Hawaii (except with a permit > > for scientific researc=
h) in order to discourage any trade in them > > whatsoever. It is okay to k=
eep the native species, but not any animal > > banned for import/export tha=
t are deemed dangerous to the native > > populations (native insects, in th=
is case). So even if there were good > > gecko vets, they would be risking =
their license if they to treat a day > > gecko since they cannot be legally=
kept.> > > > So right now we are pretty much on our own. We either have to=
stand by > > and watch them die, no matter how long it takes, or we need s=
omething > > else we can come up with to make their going easier. Maybe my =
husband > > can "smash" them, as someone else suggested. I don't know that =
I could > > unless they were already partially crushed already ... or like =
this poor > > little baby we found on our lanai, being eaten alive by ants,=
we think > > partially eaten by a day gecko who bit off more than it could=
chew and > > coughed her back up.> > > > > > We're sure she was in terribl=
e pain -- I can't believe that freezing her > > was worse than the pain she=
was suffering.> > > > I didn't know what to do for them, but my husband fe=
lt freezing would be > > quicker and kinder than letting them slowly die in=
pain. If we were > > wrong, I regret it immensely. I do know it is not at =
all kind for > > mammals; I just do not know for reptiles. Thankfully, we h=
ave > > encountered such dreadful conditions only twice. But knowing day ge=
ckos, > > it is possible this horrible situation will come up again -- and =
I am > > desperate for a better choice. Can you help? :(> > > > Mahalo, She=
rron> > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------> > Gecko aka Sherron, Kailua Kona, Hawaii (on the Big Isl=
and of Hawaii)> > Homepage: http://hale-pohaku.com/sherron - mailto:gecko@h=
ale-pohaku.com> > See our rats: http://hale-pohaku.com/dennis/ratgallery.ht=
ml> > > > _______________________________________________> Global Gecko Ass=
ociation> http://www.gekkota.com> Classifieds> http://www.gekkota.com/cgi-g=
ekkota/classifieds.cgi> gecko mailing list> gecko@lists.gekkota.com> http:/=
/lists.gekkota.com/mailman/listinfo/gecko
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'> I prefer not to throw away money into a sin=
king ship. If I had a pipe leaking in my house from multiple fracture point=
s I would opt to gut my whole plumbing system and replace with something th=
at was not obsolete. If the GGA were an automobile it would be a Lemon. Thi=
ngs have certainly turned very sour around here I just don't think there's =
enough sugar to sweeten it back up. I have seen the publications,I can say =
I wouldn't have missed much if I'd missed them. Maybe if you want help from=
people to turn this thing around you should lead by example.The only activ=
e part of the GGA is this list serve,and it's a joke. To try to pretend thi=
s organization is fulfilling some higher purpose is an insult to members in=
telligence. There is a big reason why I haven't been a member.It's pretty s=
ad that some of the most knowledgeable,passionate and enthusiastic gecko ke=
epers in the world aren't participating in The Global Gecko Association. <B=
R>
<BR>
I have legitimate criticisms. If there wasn't a problem my points wo=
uldn't be valid. No one has been able to respond with any good reasons or e=
xcuses for the issues I have called you out on. Just a bunch of shuck and j=
ive b.s.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR id=3DEC_stopSpelling>
From: lylepuente@optonline.net<BR>Subject: Re: [gecko]...Euthanasia for Dis=
tressed Geckos...<BR>To: gecko@lists.gekkota.com<BR>Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 1=
7:47:54 -0400<BR><BR>Jay,=20
<DIV>you haven't been a member for several years. It's too bad you missed a=
ll the publications.</DIV>
<DIV>We have put out some beautiful editions that we are quite proud of</DI=
V>
<DIV>Joining, or volunteering to help would would be more productive than t=
rashing something people have worked very hard on, without any compensation=
, rather paying out our own pockets to keep things going. We have two lifet=
ime members on our board. We put our money into GGA gladly.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Lyle</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-style-span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">
<DIV>
<DIV>Lyle Puente</DIV>
<DIV>President</DIV>
<DIV>Global Gecko Association</DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.gekkota.org/" target=3D_blank>http://www.gekkota=
.org</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR class=3DEC_webkit-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.mybrothersbanned.com/" target=3D_blank>http://ww=
w.MyBrothersBanned.com</A></DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.myspace.com/MyBrothersBanned" target=3D_blank>ht=
tp://www.myspace.com/MyBrothersBanned</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR class=3DEC_webkit-block-placeholder></DIV></DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:16 PM, Jay Sommers wrote:</DIV><BR class=3DEC_App=
le-interchange-newline><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-style-span style=3D"WORD-SPAC=
ING: 0px; FONT: 13px Tahoma; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-=
INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
separate">Lyle,<BR> <BR> There is most definitely a self serving=
interest to all on the board of the so-called "Global Gecko Association". =
No meetings,no journals,and furthermore no real reason for continuing to ex=
ist. What is being done of any real merit with the money received from GGA =
members? Speaking of merit...I am judging the GGA on its own.There is absol=
utely no substance what-so-ever to this "society". After the flop of the IG=
S I thought everyone would have learned something. Apparently not. As presi=
dent I hold you personally responsible for the inexcusable lack of le=
adership. If I didn't think the GGA was beyond repair I would directly chal=
lenge you for your position as President. The problem is it is too far gone=
. There is no real reason for the GGA to exist anymore. The ethical thing t=
o do would be to let nature take it's course and let it die. Jesus Christ,l=
et it go out with some damn dignity.<BR> <BR> <BR> &nb=
sp; =
Jay "GG" Sommers<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR id=3DEC_EC_stopSpelling>
From: <A href=3D"mailto:lylepuente@optonline.net">lylepuente@optonline.net<=
/A><BR>Subject: Re: [gecko]...Euthanasia for Distressed Geckos...<BR>To: <A=
href=3D"mailto:gecko@lists.gekkota.com">gecko@lists.gekkota.com</A><BR>Dat=
e: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:16:20 -0400<BR><BR>GGA has and will exist for all who=
have an interest. It was never intended or will be intended for an exclusi=
ve group of self interests.=20
<DIV>The GGA journal and newsletter is produced with all interests of the m=
embership addressed and will continue to do so.</DIV>
<DIV>This list is open to all, including non GGA members free of charge and=
to help when we can.</DIV>
<DIV>Everyone is free to post, questions, help suggestions and also cr=
iticism freely.</DIV>
<DIV>I read the below post of our purpose and it seems like we do just that=
:</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-style-span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FA=
MILY: Tahoma">"Membership is open to anyone with an interest in gekkonids, =
from the professional herpetologist to the hobbyist."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT class=3DEC_EC_Apple-style-span face=3DTahoma size=3D3><SPAN clas=
s=3DEC_EC_Apple-style-span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 13px"><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV>The threads are labeled here and one can always deleted those they hav=
e no interest in or unsubscribe.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>All are welcome</DIV>
<DIV>( i just put on some John Denver hahaha ...... )</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Lyle</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-style-span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FA=
MILY: Helvetica">
<DIV>Lyle Puente</DIV>
<DIV>President</DIV>
<DIV>Global Gecko Association</DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.gekkota.org/" target=3D_blank>http://www.gekkota=
.org</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR class=3DEC_EC_webkit-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.mybrothersbanned.com/" target=3D_blank>http://ww=
w.MyBrothersBanned.com</A></DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.myspace.com/MyBrothersBanned" target=3D_blank>ht=
tp://www.myspace.com/MyBrothersBanned</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR class=3DEC_EC_webkit-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Jun 9, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Jay Sommers wrote:</DIV><BR class=3DEC_EC=
_Apple-interchange-newline><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-style-span style=3D"WO=
RD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 13px Tahoma; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)=
; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COL=
LAPSE: separate"> Actually I should clarify my last post. When I said =
flush it I meant the GGA. This thing has been reduced to a pathetic joke.Th=
e problem is that the joke has no humor. My email has been blowing up over =
the last week and not one post was worthy of landing in my inbox. This is w=
hat the GGA was supposed to be...<BR> <BR> "The Global Gecko Ass=
ociation (GGA) is dedicated to gecko enthusiasts worldwide. Membership is o=
pen to anyone with an interest in gekkonids, from the professional herpetol=
ogist to the hobbyist.<BR> The GGA is an organization committed to pr=
omote interest in gekkonids in a variety of ways, from responsible captive =
care, to study in the wild, conservation, academic research and beyond. Fur=
thermore, the GGA will serve people who are interested in gekkonids b=
y providing a voice and means of communicating and sharing of resources and=
ideas. " <BR> <BR> Now before anyone gets upset.I hav=
e a right to voice my opinion.I maintain one of the largest and most divers=
e geckonid species collections in the world(over 200 species). My life revo=
lves around geckos,not one person in the GGA loves geckos more than me.Alot=
of you know who I am. Let the GGA die already.Put it out of it's misery,It=
is the responsible and ethical thing to do. You are helping destroy the in=
terest in my hobby and the GGA is far beyond being rediculous.<BR> <BR=
> PLEASE,PLEASE, let it die.Find another avenue for social acceptance=
.<BR> <BR> =
&nb=
sp; =
GGA...R.I.P.<BR> <BR>=
Very kindest regards,<BR> <BR> &nb=
sp; =
Jay "GG" Sommers<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR id=3DEC_EC_EC_stopSpelling>
From:<SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A href=3D"mailto:=
jacobsommers@hotmail.com">jacobsommers@hotmail.com</A><BR>To:<SPAN class=3D=
EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A href=3D"mailto:gecko@lists.gekkota=
.com">gecko@lists.gekkota.com</A><BR>Subject: RE: [gecko]...Euthanasia for =
Distressed Geckos...<BR>Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:30:16 +0000<BR><BR> &=
nbsp; I would say next time to just flush it.<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=3DEC_EC_EC_stopSpelling>
> From:<SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A href=3D"ma=
ilto:mhartley@ix.netcom.com">mhartley@ix.netcom.com</A><BR>> To:<SPAN cl=
ass=3DEC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A href=3D"mailto:gecko@lists.g=
ekkota.com">gecko@lists.gekkota.com</A><BR>> Subject: Re: [gecko]...Euth=
anasia for Distressed Geckos...<BR>> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:17:14 -080=
0<BR>><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> Hi=
Sherron,<BR>><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR=
>> I know a snake-keeper that kills rats with (I think) a carbon-dioxide=
<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> chamber, be=
cause she doesn't like to kill them "maually". I can find<SPAN class=3DEC_E=
C_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> out more, or put you in touch=
with her if you like.<BR>><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space>&nb=
sp;</SPAN><BR>> Hope this helps,<BR>> Melody<BR>><SPAN class=3DEC_=
EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> Sherron wrote:<BR>><SPAN =
class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > Aloha, Kind =
Friends<BR>> ><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>=
<BR>> > I prefer to let nature take its course usually, too. But some=
times you<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> &g=
t; can see they are in obvious pain ... and that hurts me too much, too. I<=
SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > can't b=
ear to see them in pain. Especially when it has become apparent<SPAN class=
=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > that it is hopele=
ss.<BR>> ><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>=
> > This poor girl apparently fell from our high ceiling onto a tile =
floor.<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > =
When we found her, she only moved when we tried to gently move her out<SPAN=
class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > of the way.=
We placed her in a container so she would be safe from<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_=
Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > predators (other geckos, c=
ats, mongoose, birds) and foot traffic, in the<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-con=
verted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > hopes she would recover, and gave h=
er fruit and water. It was obvious it<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-sp=
ace> </SPAN><BR>> > hurt her to move, but she seemed okay when s=
till, so we hoped for the best.<BR>> ><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-conve=
rted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > By the afternoon of the next day, how=
ever, her eyes were badly sunken,<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space>=
</SPAN><BR>> > she had trouble breathing, and her skin was deve=
loping black blotchy<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>=
<BR>> > areas. She would stiffen and gasp repeatedly for air, which o=
bviously<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> >=
; was causing her more pain. By this time, it had been about 18-20 hours<SP=
AN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > since her=
fall and she had started to deteriorate rapidly. If there had<SPAN class=
=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > been any hope ...=
:(<BR>> ><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>=
> > If we were still on the mainland, I could have taken her to our v=
et who<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > =
we did trust and who would have treated her properly. But here in the<SPAN =
class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > islands, we =
don't have those resources. Our real problem is finding<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_=
Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > someone who would even tre=
at geckos. Heck, finding adequate medical<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converte=
d-space> </SPAN><BR>> > treatment for humans is a big problem on=
the outer islands, let alone<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space>&nbs=
p;</SPAN><BR>> > for exotic animals. I have Myasthenia Gravis (MG) an=
d I can't find a<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>=
> > neurologist that knows anything about my disease on this island. =
My<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > husb=
and sees a cardiologist who flies over once a month from the island<SPAN cl=
ass=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > of Oahu. It to=
ok me 1-1/2 years to find a personal doctor who would<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Ap=
ple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > treat my "complicated" probl=
ems. Medical care for both people and<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-sp=
ace> </SPAN><BR>> > animals is sadly lacking.<BR>> ><SPAN =
class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > And it looks=
like the small number of vets here primarily just treat<SPAN class=3DEC_EC=
_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > cats & dogs. Those I =
have called don't include reptiles at all. But I<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-c=
onverted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > really am not surprised, as we ha=
d trouble finding a vet who really knew<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-=
space> </SPAN><BR>> > how to take care of "exotics" like our pet=
rats in southern California,<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space>&nbs=
p;</SPAN><BR>> > too. Finding good vets who know more than cats &=
dogs has always been a<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SP=
AN><BR>> > problem -- it's just that here in Kona there are far fewer=
to start with.<BR>> ><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> =
;</SPAN><BR>> > I am also no longer convinced that a shot from just a=
ny vet is<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> &g=
t; automatically better. I took one of my rats to another vet when our own<=
SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > vet was=
out of town and she screamed in pain from his injection -- she<SPAN class=
=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > suffered a lot fr=
om it and it took her a long time to die as she<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-co=
nverted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > suffered. Not all vets have empath=
y nor even seem to believe that<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space>&n=
bsp;</SPAN><BR>> > animals really can suffer pain. So unless you know=
the vet, you are just<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPA=
N><BR>> > taking your chances. Sometimes you have no choice, But that=
experience<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> =
> has made me leery of automatically trusting every vet.<BR>> ><SP=
AN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > Worse, af=
ter doing some checking online, I find that it is illegal in<SPAN class=3DE=
C_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > Hawaii to catch &=
keep any day geckos in Hawaii (except with a permit<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_App=
le-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > for scientific research) in o=
rder to discourage any trade in them<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-spa=
ce> </SPAN><BR>> > whatsoever. It is okay to keep the native spe=
cies, but not any animal<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </S=
PAN><BR>> > banned for import/export that are deemed dangerous to the=
native<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> >=
populations (native insects, in this case). So even if there were good<SPA=
N class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > gecko vets=
, they would be risking their license if they to treat a day<SPAN class=3DE=
C_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > gecko since they cann=
ot be legally kept.<BR>> ><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space>&=
nbsp;</SPAN><BR>> > So right now we are pretty much on our own. We ei=
ther have to stand by<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN=
><BR>> > and watch them die, no matter how long it takes, or we need =
something<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> &g=
t; else we can come up with to make their going easier. Maybe my husband<SP=
AN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > can "smas=
h" them, as someone else suggested. I don't know that I could<SPAN class=3D=
EC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > unless they were alr=
eady partially crushed already ... or like this poor<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_App=
le-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > little baby we found on our l=
anai, being eaten alive by ants, we think<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converte=
d-space> </SPAN><BR>> > partially eaten by a day gecko who bit o=
ff more than it could chew and<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space>&nb=
sp;</SPAN><BR>> > coughed her back up.<BR>> ><SPAN class=3DEC_E=
C_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> ><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple=
-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > We're sure she was in terrible =
pain -- I can't believe that freezing her<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converte=
d-space> </SPAN><BR>> > was worse than the pain she was sufferin=
g.<BR>> ><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>&=
gt; > I didn't know what to do for them, but my husband felt freezing wo=
uld be<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > =
quicker and kinder than letting them slowly die in pain. If we were<SPAN cl=
ass=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > wrong, I regre=
t it immensely. I do know it is not at all kind for<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Appl=
e-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > mammals; I just do not know fo=
r reptiles. Thankfully, we have<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space>&n=
bsp;</SPAN><BR>> > encountered such dreadful conditions only twice. B=
ut knowing day geckos,<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPA=
N><BR>> > it is possible this horrible situation will come up again -=
- and I am<SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> &=
gt; desperate for a better choice. Can you help? :(<BR>> ><SPAN class=
=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > Mahalo, Sherron<B=
R>> ><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> =
><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> > --=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<=
BR>> > Gecko aka Sherron, Kailua Kona, Hawaii (on the Big Island of H=
awaii)<BR>> > Homepage:<SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-converted-space> <=
/SPAN><A href=3D"http://hale-pohaku.com/sherron" target=3D_blank>http://hal=
e-pohaku.com/sherron</A><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN=
>-<SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A href=3D"mailto:gec=
ko@hale-pohaku.com">mailto:gecko@hale-pohaku.com</A><BR>> > See our r=
ats:<SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A href=3D"http://h=
ale-pohaku.com/dennis/ratgallery.html" target=3D_blank>http://hale-pohaku.c=
om/dennis/ratgallery.html</A><BR>> ><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-convert=
ed-space> </SPAN><BR>><SPAN class=3DEC_EC_Apple-converted-space>&nb=
sp;</SPAN><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> =
Global Gecko Association<BR>><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-converted-space>&nbs=
p;</SPAN><A href=3D"http://www.gekkota.com/" target=3D_blank>http://www.gek=
kota.com</A><BR>> Classifieds<BR>><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-converted-sp=
ace> </SPAN><A href=3D"http://www.gekkota.com/cgi-gekkota/classifieds.=
cgi" target=3D_blank>http://www.gekkota.com/cgi-gekkota/classifieds.cgi</A>=
<BR>> gecko mailing list<BR>><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-converted-space>&=
nbsp;</SPAN><A href=3D"mailto:gecko@lists.gekkota.com">gecko@lists.gekkota.=
com</A><BR>><SPAN class=3DEC_Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A href=
=3D"http://lists.gekkota.com/mailman/listinfo/gecko" target=3D_blank>http:/=
/lists.gekkota.com/mailman/listinfo/gecko</A><BR><BR>
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